Nov 27, 2017

Long Donger


What's the longest anyone's gone on a comp trials frame?


Reach: Is there any advantage to running a longer stem outside of putting the bars where you want them? Is there any functional steering/leverage advantage to a long stem?


--> The Arcade gets a longer reach by a steep HTA, keeping a tight wheelbase.


Wheelbase: How long is too long? What would a long wheelbase help and what would it hurt?


HTA: How steep is too steep? Since it gives you more reach which allows for a shorter stem while also keeping wheelbase short

Nov 27, 2017

Wheelbase-wise (for 26" bikes), there was an old Koxx Vinco pro-model about 10 years ago that had a 1115 wheelbase I think. There were a few other frames (Rockman Kortz, Yess, etc.) that had 1100-1105 wb.


Reach-wise, the current Crewkerz Jealousy L frame is pretty long at 680mm, no idea what some of those older Vinco/Kortz frames were for reach as they didn't really measure that much back then.


Aside from the obvious lengthening out of the cockpit (which is generally good for taller riders to help not feel cramped), a longer stem will make getting your weight over the front wheel easier. This generally makes most front wheel moves easier, gaps to front, pedal-ups to front, etc. A longer stem can also help the bike feel a little more stable on the rear wheel. But it also makes it harder to pull the front end up for bunnyhops or just getting on the rear wheel and it is a little more awkward feeling for two wheel handling.


As far as too long, I think anything over 1100 on 26" is too long, unless the rider is like 6'3"+. A long wheelbase makes the bike better at wedges and spanning gaps and also is much better for taps. But it is much harder to switch front to rear, and do any type of spin or bunnyhop. Longer wheelbase makes the bike feel less nimble. Personally at 6' I prefer a 1080-1090wb for a comp bike.


HTA: at 74.5, the Arcade is probably one of the steepest out there, so despite its short wb, it feels pretty roomy in the cockpit. Steeper head angle puts your weight over the front of the bike, so front wheel moves, g-turns, stoppies things like that are easier. But, it does make the bike feel more twitchy at speed. Personally I think the geometry of the Arcade is pretty spot on. But I would not want a comp bike with a HA that steep, too twitchy feeling.

Dec 9, 2017Edited: Dec 9, 2017

Awesome thoughts on this...

And yeah, the Arcade is super comfortable! I was surprised to feel really at home on it. Tempted, but I still like my almost-too-long P. Trials bike (similar to Hex).


I’m at 6’5” and I’ve been running a 160mm Trialtech Race stem on my Echo Mark IV 26”. I’m hoping to reduce some of the awkwardness. I’m looking for maybe another 10-15mm with 1° steeper HTA...

Echo: 1080 WB / 72° HTA


Dec 9, 2017

The new Echo Mark 6 frames have about 15mm more reach than yours since they made the HA steeper (73.5), they do feel a little more roomy so you might like those. Like you're saying, if you could ride a frame with a bit more reach, you'd be able to go down to maybe a 165 stem, which would make the bike feel a little less weird.


What bar are you running? I'd definitely recommend something with a lot of rise if you don't have one already. And rolling the bars forward is a good way to gain reach (at the expense of bunnyhops).

Dec 9, 2017Edited: Dec 9, 2017

I made a typo, I meant 160mm stem!

Trialtech SL rolled forward at about 40deg which puts me back at an effectively longer "stem" length

Hm, noted... Your website says 1075 WB, where Echo says 1085? (I'm just referencing WB and HTA with the lack of reach numbers at hand. I don't have my bike to measure atm)

Dec 9, 2017

oh, ok 165 stem is more reasonable then. I believe 1075 is what we measured here at the shop, 1085 is Echo's stated wb. I don't have a Mark 6 26" bike here at the moment to check against though.


If you're feeling cramped, you can try a bar with more rise. Trialtech SL is a nice bar but it doesn't have that much rise compared to some of the newer Jitsie, Clean, etc. bars. I run the Clean carbon, which has about 15mm more rise/reach than the Trialtech.

Dec 24, 2017Edited: Dec 24, 2017

So I plugged the numbers into CAD and they match up! The new bike should be right at 675 reach if the other geo numbers are about right.




- Echo Mark 3: (Actual)

- BBR: 62

- WB: 1095

- CS: 380

- Reach: 665

- HTA: 70

- HT: 110

- Echo Mark 6: (Webcyclery)

- BBR: 65

- WB: 1075

- CS: 380

- Reach: 675

- HTA: 73.5

- HT: 110


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